Criticism of my views on Piccadilly Gardens and the redevelopment of Manchester

[aidanorourke]

Message received from JLT

Subject: piccadilly gardens
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:52:28 +0000

hello aidan

i have been reading a lot of your web pages in the past few days.

im from manchester but im studying architecture in london and i have been looking into piccadilly gardens for part of a project.

first of all i want to say that for a writer/photographer of manchester you seem to have a very negative opinion. i hope you don't have too much influence on the people because you are really bringing manchester down.

when i was a young kid in the city in the 80s i was constantly amazed by the manchester style and developments and how fast things changed. for me this is a big part of what manchester is about, change.

change is the only thing certain in this life and it happens every second. we cannot keep things the same, and why would we want to? the need to keep things the same comes from weakness.

you complain so much about the new gardens and praise the old ones.... the old gardens were plain, poor and dated, actually the whole city centre was.

piccadilly gardens look absolutley amazing now. they are a total success (you predicted that they wouldnt be)

thank god for the bomb!

manchester has been developed superbly, its the best example in the uk and im very proud of it (i always have been). the council, in my opinion have been quite brave in making some of their decisions and it has paid off greatly. the mix of great old buildings and great modern buildings is fantastically done. of course there are some cheap developments (there always will be), but on the whole manchester is shaping up to be a first class modern city.

manchester and its people are pioneers, the rest of the country looks up to our city and what we have achieved with it. this is because we are brave and we wont let ourselves get stuck in the past.

i agree with some of your views, we should protect more of our old architecture but, this you might not agree with, instead of keeping them as they are or knocking them down we should build modern architecture around them.... keeping the old shell and complimenting it, contrasting it with the super modern. we are, after all, in the year 2006.

manchester looks towards the future and embraces it..... this is why it is so successful

maybe you should too?

james

ps thanks and well done for the great pictures

[aidanorourke]

Thanks very much for your message. You've raised many excellent points for discussion. I'll just pick out a few:

I have been embracing the future of Manchester ever since I did my first project on Manchester buildings as a pupil at Our Lady's Primary School Edgeley, around 1968. I wrote about Piccadilly Plaza, Highland House (now North Tower) and other modern buildings.

What I've learned over the past four decades is that there is no such thing as the future, there is no such thing as the present and there is no such thing as the past.

Past, present and future are all mingled - or mangled - up together. Today's 'new exciting' development project may well be tomorrow's old outdated eyesore, as with the Hulme Crescents and many more projects.

As for Piccadilly Gardens, I objected to them because they are simply a badly-conceived piece of urban planning, which involved the construction of an ugly and intrusive office block on a public garden, reducing its area by a third.

You'll see I've been very interested in other new developments including the Beetham Tower, Urbis, Number One Deansgate and many others.

There are many myths about Manchester which have arisen in recent years, which need to be dispelled:

Manchester has always been a cosmopolitan, forward-looking, dare I mention that over-used word, vibrant place. The idea that before 1990, Manchester was a drab, dismal backwater is an illusion.

The idea that Manchester nowadays is place where everything is all shiny, modern and new is also an illusion.

People in other parts of the country, particularly Birmingham, would take exception to the idea that they look up to Manchester!

The present wave of development would have taken place anyway without the bomb. Look to Dublin, Leeds Liverpool and other cities. It's taking place there too.

And I should add that I have to take a very long and very sharp intake of breath when people say that we should 'thank god' for a device which could easily have killed hundreds of people, had it exploded prematurely.

I'll finish by saying that we urgently need some market research to determine just what people think about the post-2001 Piccadilly Gardens.

We should be positive but also constructively critical about Manchester.

Thanks for your message and for taking a swipe at me! The world would be very boring if we all agreed with each other!

[bazzor]

Subject: piccadilly gardens
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:52:28 +0000

hello aidan

i have been reading a lot of your web pages in the past few days.

im from manchester but im studying architecture in london and i have been looking into piccadilly gardens for part of a project.

first of all i want to say that for a writer/photographer of manchester you seem to have a very negative opinion. i hope you don't have too much influence on the people because you are really bringing manchester down.

Maybe Aidan's opinions are based on a mixture of facts, education and personal taste all through the eyes of a photographer/writer who lives and breathes Manchester unlike some of your opinions which seems to have no facts to back up your argument furthermore less educated and more patriotic in tone; could you give us some examples of what Aidan said that was in your opinion negative and bringing Manchester down?

when i was a young kid in the city in the 80s i was constantly amazed by the manchester style and developments and how fast things changed. for me this is a big part of what manchester is about, change.

Not sure I understand this, you was amazed by how fast things change, what changed in Manchester during the 80’s do you have any examples of what you mean?

change is the only thing certain in this life and it happens every second. we cannot keep things the same, and why would we want to? the need to keep things the same comes from weakness.

Taxes and Death are the only things certain in life, not change, change is never guaranteed I put 5 pound note in the parking machine only 3 weeks ago and I never got any change. Not sure I agree with you that we keep things the same because we are weak, you say change happens every second, umm some things change and some things do not, so if things change every second, does that mean we should be looking at changing Piccadilly Gardens already?

you complain so much about the new gardens and praise the old ones.... the old gardens were plain, poor and dated, actually the whole city centre was.

So in your opinion "the whole City was plain, poor and dated", but you said you was amazed by Manchester style and developments and how fast things changed in the 80s, is this a contradiction or could you elaborate so we understand better?

piccadilly gardens look absolutley amazing now. they are a total success (you predicted that they wouldnt be)

Piccadilly gardens has no garden feel to it at all, half of the gardens has gone in favour of a jet fountain, nice to look at but not a garden, all of the so called gardens are now over towered by some monstrosity of a building which might have been more suited to your studies than the gardens, and a rather large ugly wall cover the length of another side which makes the gardens feels very cramped and over crowded all because of the way it is designed, the gardens was the last thing they was thinking about when designing the so called gardens, if they could, they would have built right over them with offices, maybe you should come up here to the gardens and really study them for yourself, or better still chosen some architecture in London at least you could visit regular. Maybe Piccadilly Gardens should be called Claustrophobic Reduced Gardens?

thank god for the bomb!

This is sheer ignorance, if I was as ignorant as your comments I could have taken offence, I was 100 yards away from that bomb with my 2 year old daughter. If it takes a bomb to rush forward to regenerate a city, then what happened to your comments about “Manchester style and developments and how fast things changed” even though in your opinion “whole city centre was plain, poor and dated” Do you mean the Bomb was a good thing because it changed the city for the better or was the city changing through the 80s at a fast pace really mean, no pace at all, please give some examples of what you mean? Because i'm getting confused

manchester has been developed superbly, its the best example in the uk and im very proud of it (i always have been). the council, in my opinion have been quite brave in making some of their decisions and it has paid off greatly. the mix of great old buildings and great modern buildings is fantastically done. of course there are some cheap developments (there always will be), but on the whole manchester is shaping up to be a first class modern city.

You say you have always been proud of the City, even though it was in your opinion “whole city centre was plain, poor and dated” ?
What decisions have the council made?
They had no choice they had to rebuild and would still be waiting for Government money today if the terrorists hadn’t blown the centre to bits. Some parts of the City centre in my opinion are fantastic like Printworks, Urbis, No 1 Deansgate, Also the new section of the Arndale, Cathedral Gardens, Exchange Square / Triangle & Shambles square and surrounding streets leading up to St Ann’s Square. Which cheap developments are you referring to?

manchester and its people are pioneers, the rest of the country looks up to our city and what we have achieved with it. this is because we are brave and we wont let ourselves get stuck in the past.

The IRA blew up the City centre and quiet a large portion of the construction work went to Irish companies, sure many Manchester people help build it, the construction work was massive how could they not? Could you tell me how many Manchester people had a hand in any of the new designs including Piccadilly Gardens? Can you tell me anyone who helped design anything to do with the gardens? Was they Manchester Pioneers?


i agree with some of your views, we should protect more of our old architecture but, this you might not agree with, instead of keeping them as they are or knocking them down we should build modern architecture around them.... keeping the old shell and complimenting it, contrasting it with the super modern. we are, after all, in the year 2006.

Maybe because you are studying architecture in London, I think it would be best not to be so blinkered in your studies, how can you learn if you have already made up your mind, you should take onboard other people views and when you have all your research, then study it and break it down, maybe you will come to a different conclusion maybe not. Studying is not about negative or positive, its about facts, you would do far better if you had a more constructive opinions about your subject than just to come accross as positive, even when positive is not the truth, maybe you would have acquired much better research info if you had asked Aidan why he come to his conclusions rather than to be so negative towards him yourself, especially since you do not give any examples of your own subjective opinion for others to give their objective opinion.

manchester looks towards the future and embraces it..... this is why it is so successful

Please give examples of the success you talk about?

maybe you should too?

How long have you been away from Manchester? Maybe you really should come back here just to see how the city is changing first hand! A lot has changed in a year and parts of Manchester do not look like Manchester did a couple of years ago and even much less than 1996.

Sorry Aidan I could not keep quiet any longer!

[aidanorourke]

That's OK. I'm happy for my views on Manchester to be discussed and debated. It's all part of the process of gaining a better understanding of the subject.

I would like to hear more of peoples views on the redesigned Piccadilly Gardens.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

I'm certain I'm not the oldest person contributing to Aidan's pages but I have vivid memories that go back to Manchester in the very early 1950s when the place was dirty, depressed, full of bomb sites and had no direction other than to cling to an outmoded idea of being a manufacturing, warehousing and port cog near the hub in the wheel of Empire.

As I grew up in the 50s and 60s the city started to lose its industry, warehouses consolidated and closed and, over a 15-17 year period, the city centre, and many of the inner suburbs instead of burgeoning and developing, declined.

There were exceptions. Towards the end of the period the Piccadilly Plaza Complex, one of the ugliest concrete and glass monstrosities ever foisted on a city, opened with massive fanfares and expectations and, hotel apart, failed to function as decreed despite being heralded as the start of a new era in shopping and office premises - the tower not only ruined the perspective looking up King St but the weird design of the top stories detracted from the up ended matchbox simplicity, looked ugly and offered a lesson to designers which was ignored forty years later by those who have allowed the construction on top of the Beetham Tower.

Other disasters included Chorlton St Bus Station, Rodwell Tower and the Maths Building at the University, not to mention the Hulme Crescents and a variety of so called deck access flats.

The Co-op alone seemed to have got the equation right with a balance of modernity, looks and appropriate positioning for its CIS complex.

The Town Hall, Town Hall extension, Library and Royal Exchange all had their exteriors cleaned in the early 1970s but the years up to 1980 offered little better. Older buildings were torn down regardless of value or the possibility of conversion in the rush to erect concrete and glass.

Then came the biggest public lavatory in the world - the Arndale. Nothing wrong with the concept, Manchester badly needed weatherproof shopping and inside the concept was well conceived. But outside.... the vista was soulless and the beige tiles were a disaster, in looks, in use and in what they did for the reputation of the centre of the city.

Meanwhile Oldham Street, once a bustling shopping street declined and festered.

By the time I left Manchester in 1986 the city had started to wake up and assert its identity. The long derelict Central Station had become GMEX, planning included both new building and the conversion behind old facades of some of the more interesting older buildings but some gems, such as Tommy Ducks, were lost forever.

Since I left I've visited frequently, mainly on family business, but last summer, for the first time ever, I visited with the avowed intention of being a tourist.

My wife and I did what we do when we visit any new city for the first time - we took the tour bus. As I've given many guided tours of Manchester to visitors ranging from friends to business people to European Parliamentary representatives over the years, it was both interesting and rather odd to be on the receiving end of a commentary.

Obviously we both knew everywhere we went and many of the facts. What was interesting was to see just how much there is to see and do in Manchester and just how much the city has changed and is continuing to change and, at last, mostly for the good. At the end of the tour we realised that a visitor coming fresh to the city would find plenty to interest, please and intrigue.

After 3 days of wandering round we were left with the impression that, from the perspective of a visitor, the city now feels like a vibrant and vital European city. The beautiful July weather helped but even in the rain of mid November, when I last walked up Market St., the city felt far more metropolitan than it did when I was charged with promoting the GMC area in the 1970s and 1980s.

Just tonight, watching United play Benfica I was reminded that the area now boasts two world class stadia for the city's teams, both edifices being beyond even the wildest dreams we could have had when we took the electric train to Old Trafford or the bus to Maine Road for the derby matches of old.

There are still black spots - especially in the inner suburbs - but standing at the bus stop at Great Western St waiting for the number 1 to Gatley in 1959 to take me home from school I never would have guessed that I was standing at the edge of what was to be a world famous culinary centre 40 years on.

On the particular topic of Piccadilly Gardens, I suspect the truth is that there is a difference between name and expectation and current form and function here.

In the 1950s, as a child, the only time I ever went to the Gardens was at Christmas when there were lights and a crib. In the 1960s, on bright summer days, we would sit out in the Gardens and eat a pastie or pie bought from Lewis's food hall using the hour's lunch break from Rylands to both take lunch and eye up the girls.

In the 1970s and 1980s the Gardens were merely a cut through from County Hall to the Arndale or one of the pubs.

The old Gardens were very formal and followed a civic gardens tradition dating back to the late 19th century. They were attractive in their own right but they were also very dated in their formality and, hot days apart, had ceased to become the "lung" in the heart of the city they were initially designed to be.

The revamped area isn't as pretty as it used to be but the fountain gives it life. On hot days the place feels is truly vibrant, far more than ever before and, apart from the distributors of the free MEN and their produce which both litter the whole area, the place looks as if it is kept tidy. Even on a damp November Friday lunchtime, the place was much more alive than in previous times.

Perhaps it need renaming **** Place, or Square or Promenade. How about a competition for the most original Manchester linked name - particularly one that isn't the same as a place in another city? There are dozens to choose from in just about every field of human endeavour.

Looking back over 55 years, I was always excited by Manchester city centre as a small child, run down and dirty as it was.

As a teenager in the early 1960s Central Library and the atmosphere of the city on a Friday night - when homework done, we would leave our bags in the Technical Library and invade Duncun Fosters or the Ceylon Tea Centre and linger for hours over a cup of coffee or tea - is still fresh in the memory.

I have many good memories of events in the city for which I was responsible in the 1970s and 1980s, especially as many were hard won against the reputation the place had in the rest of the UK and abroad.

Now, as a frequent visitor, ex-pat Mancunian and first time tourist(!) I think the city has the balance pretty much right, has become a truly international centre and has a great future. Certainly there will be differing views on buildings, public spaces and structures but, on reflection, if I could be 16 again living in the area, I would feel that I inhabited a modern, international city that could hold its own with other cities around the world, with great prospects for the future - not a view I could have reasonably held in 1963.

[aidanorourke]

That was a wide-ranging perspective on Manchester. Not sure I agree with all of it. I like Piccadilly Plaza and the Sunley Building, now City Tower, and I like the Beetham Tower. I loved Manchester in the 60s, 70s and 80s too. Any more views?

[Phil Blinkhorn]

I too like the Beetham Tower - except for the piece on the top!

The Piccadilly Plaza was a disaster for many years. The shops above street level were difficult to let, the upper deck becoming a muggers paradise before mugging became commonplace. The area was dirty and the pedestrian entrance to the hotel, by escalator, was so dirty and smelly in the late seventies (not the fault of the hotel which valiantly tried to stop people using the area as a pissoir and vomitorium) that I always took visitors to the hotel via car.

[bazzor]

Great post by Phil Blinkhorn, very interesting, I do not remember much development during the 80s, I think the Arndale was finished in 1979 (or was that phase two) but like you said, it is the ugliest building the world has witnessed, so the new added design 2006 can only be a massive improvement, I also remember the redesign of the Railway station to the G-MEX, not sure the original poster JLT was referring to a redesign of a Train Station into G-MEX in reference to Manchester's pioneering people. Pioneers is what we had 100 and 200 years ago, I couldn’t off the top of my head think of any Manchester Pioneering people of recent years?

The so called gardens I have to agree that they do look much busier than when they actually was when gardens, but that is due to the water feature rather than any garden feature, and since there is less room to move around then this will add to the feeling of being popular or busy, but what is that wall all about, it reminds me of the Berlin Wall, maybe that is the direction Labour seems to be heading with all its Stazi like propaganda, mind control and spying cameras this could be a trial run of what is to come?

Piccadilly Plaza to me is also an eye sure and could and should have been much better designed, back to Beetham Tower, I do not like this building to look at, as much as I have tried I can not see beauty or anything that couldn’t have been built 20 years ago, the name even grates on me, Beetham Tower, what a name, its not even easy to say, maybe Faulty Tower would be more suited since it had what looks like a piece missing from the bottom. I hate the name which might have prejudged my opinions, maybe next time we meet Aidan, you can take me to Faulty Tower and educate me why and what I am missing? Plus I could get some shots from the top?

Like Beetham Tower, we have a great looking stadium albeit a fraction of what it should have been like if we had the TRUE backing of London when campaigning for the Olympics… The name of this stadium is what?...Eastlands, City of Manchester Stadium or is it named after all the sign posts directing traffic to the ground, “Sport City”, all these names are referred to by the locals and commentators worldwide, the brand new multi million pound stadium has no identity unlike Maine Road which was known throughout the world and had great tradition associated with its name, it was used for major cup games and F.A. Cup replays, what will the history books write about the new stadium, will anyone know which name is official? Beetham Tower and the new Stadium and Piccadilly Gardens all need renaming!

What is that ugly building called that destroys the Cathedral’s beauty, looking down from Urbis over Salford direction, there is a monstrosity towering over the Cathedral skyline, who ever decided that, that building was worthy of such a great design and should tower all buildings in the vicinity should be flogged in public!

As for the Gardens I think the think-tanks worked out that if they add water then people will gravitate towards it, also if they make place much smaller this will give the illusion of being full of activity with people loitering around the water feature and filling the concrete benches the cramped space for people to actually sit on some grass not concrete, surrounded by the Berlin Wall and the observation building, all this adds to a new name one that is fitting of the new modern design, maybe Stalag 17... On the whole Manchester City Centre is a much more pleasing place architecturally to look at, with old and new building side by side!

“ok ok”, a little bit of tongue in cheek but all good debating none the less. Ok Aidan, don’t forget my trip to Faulty Towers!

[Phil Blinkhorn]

[quote=bazzor;85]
... we have a great looking stadium albeit a fraction of what it should have been like if we had the TRUE backing of London when campaigning for the Olympics… The name of this stadium is what?...Eastlands, City of Manchester Stadium or is it named after all the sign posts directing traffic to the ground, “Sport City”, all these names are referred to by the locals and commentators worldwide [quote]

As I understand it, the redeveloped area around the stadium including all roads and properties, is now known as Eastlands.

The Sports Complex itself is Sport City and, within that complex, the erstwhile Commonwealth Games Stadium, now Manchester City's home ground, is known as The City of Manchester Stadium.

Sports commentators, journalists and others who should know better and supposedly keep us all "informed" are amongst the worst in the world for spreading disinformation.

[Henry Mantell]

As an expat who remembers Phil Blinkhorn at Xaverian, my only memory of the fountains was the joker who during the Commonwealth games used the complimentary Foamburst in the fountains. I haven't seen so many bubbles since someone put Badedas in the Aerotone at Victoria Baths. I am feeling old now, but I'm not as old as Phil Blinkhorn. Enjoy your posts Phil, maybe on reflection they should have let you in the Six Form!
As I am paying a short visit to Manchester in January I may check all this out.