Super Casino for Manchester: A bad decision?

[bazzor]

With the utmost respect Phil, do not take offence or this to heart, my experiences are from 30 years living in Harpurhey (1/4 mile away from the new casino) and many good people still live in Harpurhey by the way, none wealthy though and far too many in serious health problems and unable to get out of this deprived part of Manchester… a good debate though nonetheless.

BELOW THE MINIMUM WAGE and why so many companies are employing migrant workers:
The loop hole is; temporary work through agencies, different Law applies to them, set by the unelected EU.

“Equal treatment rights in relation to pay need not apply where the agency
worker’s assignment lasts no longer than six weeks, or where the agency
worker is employed by the agency on a permanent contract and is paid
between assignments.”

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

See:Acas - National Minimum Wage

This link ONLY talks about the National Wage, no mention of Migrant Workers.

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

Did you bother to read my earlier post about Las Vegas, or do any research yourself?

Yes and Yes

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

You completely miss my point re your statement about the minimum wage. The following is totally inaccurate and you haven't corrected it.

Nope, I understood it fully. In my opinion your facts and research will have to be updated.

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

The ACAS page I referred to is the most straightforward and simple laying out of the law as it stands. It is TOTALLY illegal for companies not to pay the minimum wage to persons employed who are 22 and over and not listed in para 3 of that page. There are NO other exceptions.

There is an urban myth circulating both in the UK and Ireland that people from Eastern Europe don't have to be paid as much and is being used to inflate anti-Eastern European worker feeling. It comes from the fact that workers from those countries working legally are prepared to accept the minimum wage whereas the natives of the two countries reject that level of pay as "not enough". Also, the self employed (who are exempt) will work for less than their counterparts in the two countries. Trying getting a UK or Irish plasterer or plumber and check their rates IF they turn up. The Poles will turn up and charge less.

The Myth might be in your own mind, you say “There are NO other exceptions” check out temporary agency work? If you had, you would have known that most migrant workers are working through agencies, and agency work has its own set of rules which allow wages lower than the national legal wages.

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

Las Vegas

Las Vegas multitude of wealth, compare that to poverty stricken Bradford and its single super casino, absolutely no comparison what so ever. USA have totally different approach to business than they do in Britain.

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

Belle Vue

Different age different world completely, We have the government encouraging discrimination, we have the government giving the nations wealth to the rest of the world, and an NHS for the world, Wages kept down so interests rates are better managed. We have no powerful Unions; we live in a world where the slightest of words could cause death all over the world. The government in my opinion is far worse than Thatcher’s regime, at least I knew where I stood with Thatcher. Manchester is not the same ‘Manchester’ you use to know, you can’t refer to Las Vegas and Belle Vue and expect those references to apply to North Manchester in today’s world.

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

learned their jobs by starting at the bottom

10s of 1000s of decent people did just that, now they have become redundant and are having to fight for low paid jobs with the desperate and the poorest people from the ex-communist block.

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

If the locals can't be bothered to try for the jobs and take advantage of what's on offer, that's their problem.

READ THE FOLLOWING LINK!

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

Surely the people in the area should go out to make the jobs their own.

far too simplistic, read this link.

Harpurhey, the worst place in England

do you think all the poor and less well off people all chose to live in Harpurhey? Hardly a coincidence!

Absolutely NO WAY will this rich mans toy benefit the local community! HOW I ask? The good people of North Manchester was lead to believe they would have jobs when the Commonwealth stadium was built, I know not of one single person who works there to this day, also I have had a season ticket for 4 years and have never bumped into anyone I know or vaguely knew who works there, plenty of ‘not so good’ English speaking workers there to serve you your food or help you cross the car park mind. Don’t take my word for it, take a look for yourself.

Maybe all those ex-communist members of the Labour party still have a soft spot for their comrades from the old soviet block?

If I could afford to live outside this country I would too!

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Please read and understand the contents of the following link which is Crown copyright 2007:

http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/pay...page12589.html

Please pay particular attention to this section:

The minimum wage will apply to:

- all workers over school leaving age (Section 1, 54)
- overseas workers even if they are only in the UK for a short time (Section 1)
- agency workers and homeworkers who may not otherwise qualify as ‘workers’ in employment legislation (Section 34, 35)

Originally Posted by bazzor

BELOW THE MINIMUM WAGE and why so many companies are employing migrant workers:
The loop hole is; temporary work through agencies, different Law applies to them, set by the unelected EU.

“Equal treatment rights in relation to pay need not apply where the agency
worker’s assignment lasts no longer than six weeks, or where the agency
worker is employed by the agency on a permanent contract and is paid
between assignments.”

You are quoting from the European Agency Workers Directive on Equal Pay which, not only has nothing to do with the National Minimum Wage Act but can only come into play once the minimum wage is paid. Further, as shown in this commentary from Lawspeed, one of the UK's leading employment law consultancies, the EU AWD's exclusions have limited effect in the UK:

Member states can chose not to apply this equal treatment requirement where temporary agency workers meet one of four conditions:
the temp is paid between assignments (this is invariably not the case in the UK);
the temp is covered by collective agreements (this is also very rare in most industries in the UK) ;
the assignment is for less than 6 weeks;
or there is no comparable worker

This link ONLY talks about the National Wage, no mention of Migrant Workers.

Not true. National means pertaining to the Nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not the nationality of the worker.

Nope, I understood it fully. In my opinion your facts and research will have to be updated.

As proved above, you didn't understand it at all, particularly the meaning of "national".

The Myth might be in your own mind, you say “There are NO other exceptions” check out temporary agency work? If you had, you would have known that most migrant workers are working through agencies, and agency work has its own set of rules which allow wages lower than the national legal wages.

As proved, that is total rubbish and you are the one promulgating the myth.

Las Vegas multitude of wealth, compare that to poverty stricken Bradford and its single super casino, absolutely no comparison what so ever. USA have totally different approach to business than they do in Britain.

Las Vegas started as just about the poorest mining town in the USA. It started with one casino (not that I'm advocating Manchester should develop its own Strip) and is one of the most heavily unionised towns in the USA.

Different age different world completely, We have the government encouraging discrimination, we have the government giving the nations wealth to the rest of the world, and an NHS for the world, Wages kept down so interests rates are better managed. We have no powerful Unions; we live in a world where the slightest of words could cause death all over the world. The government in my opinion is far worse than Thatcher’s regime, at least I knew where I stood with Thatcher. Manchester is not the same ‘Manchester’ you use to know, you can’t refer to Las Vegas and Belle Vue and expect those references to apply to North Manchester in today’s world.

Sounds like a bit of bigotry creeping in. As for "the Manchester I used to know", I visit Manchester an average 3 times a year. I have family and friends that live and work in the City and surrounding towns with whom I'm in almost daily contact. I have old business contacts with whom I keep in regular touch. I read the M.E.N. on the Web and watch Northwest Today and Northwest Tonight on a daily basis.

10s of 1000s of decent people did just that, now they have become redundant and are having to fight for low paid jobs with the desperate and the poorest people from the ex-communist block.

....and we all know which grocer's daughter destroyed the coal, steel, heavy engineering and other UK major industries whilst privatising BA, BR, the NCB, British Steel and other companies to the benefit of ....well not the people of North and East Manchester.

far too simplistic, read this link.

Not at all simplistic. If people want jobs they need to apply. You said yourself that British people don't want jobs as car park attendants etc. I have been redundant twice in my life. With a wife, daughter and mortgage to support I took any job to bring in SOME money until, the first time I got a job I wanted and the second I started my own company.

Harpurhey, the worst place in England

do you think all the poor and less well off people all chose to live in Harpurhey? Hardly a coincidence!

So they have been put there by whom? Nobody wants people to live in those conditions. The casino will offer jobs. If people from Harpurhey apply they may find they will be employed. Shock, horror, what will they do then - complain that they are on the minimum wage and have a chance to work their way into a better position in time?

Absolutely NO WAY will this rich mans toy benefit the local community! HOW I ask? The good people of North Manchester was lead to believe they would have jobs when the Commonwealth stadium was built, I know not of one single person who works there to this day, also I have had a season ticket for 4 years and have never bumped into anyone I know or vaguely knew who works there, plenty of ‘not so good’ English speaking workers there to serve you your food or help you cross the car park mind. Don’t take my word for it, take a look for yourself.

I can't quote figures for travel to work distance or the nationality of employees at the Stadium but your hearsay "evidence" is just that, hearsay - but I doubt your observation will stand up to scrutiny either during the construction phase or now Sport City is up and running..

Maybe all those ex-communist members of the Labour party still have a soft spot for their comrades from the old soviet block?

That is a really stupid statement and is insulting both to members of the Labour party and, more importantly, to the people of the old Eastern Bloc. You beginning to show your true concern - "Johnny Foreigner taking English jobs".
The simple answer is that, if British people want British jobs they need to apply and, once employed, apply themselves and work their way into either job security and a better position or both.

If I could afford to live outside this country I would too!

What's stopping you? There are cheap air fares, you can live and work anywhere in the EU, Bulgaria is very cheap and if thousands of East Europeans can do it so can you.

[bazzor]

…this is so funny. So you would have us believe that all those companies would rather employ foreign workers because they are what…? better workers than the British, I find that incredibly suspect, I would doubt that shrewd companies who have nothing but profit in their sights will take risks on employing people who they can not vet or know anything about, why would companies take such risks on workers when they wont know if the workers are criminals including rapists, paedophiles, murders, or just thieves? Unlike they could for British workers plus they wouldn’t have to worry about any language or culture barrier. Wasn’t it Labour who said that these people are only doing the jobs that British people won’t do? Like McDonalds, Cleaning Jobs, Bus Drivers, lavatory cleaners? So this country would collapse into untold depression if these jobs weren’t filled? Amazing, I just wonder how we ever managed before.

Would you say that the Human Rights Bill was a British Government idea or would you say that it was one of unelected EU’s great ideas? Yes, not a Labour Government idea but yet the Labour government has decided that it will abide by its terms and force it upon the rest of the country because they know best. But yet the Government does not want to change our monitory system over to the new Euro which incidentally is worth less than our Pound. Taking that onboard would you then say that the Government picks and chooses which EU laws it wants to abide by. And possibly one which favours migrant workers working below British workers minimum wage could be one also.

I find it very strange that Labour brought out such Law then decided that it will allow any EU country to come here and take any job they choose…who benefits from that? not the British unemployed, not the British low paid workers, not the British workers who was expecting a pay rise that year, not the British people who had worked hard for years and worked their way up to a decent wage, nope the people who benefit would be the new Labour voters who seem to be company owners who hire these migrant workers, they stand to save millions and could end up with a Peerage for donations they can now afford to give to the new anti British Labour government.

I know people who are working on these agencies and they do not abide by British Law, they are on less pay, they do not even get the legally allowed holidays that the British worker is entitled to. The loophole is for agencies based outside the UK who are not obliged to operate by British law nor pay British TAXs which also encourages British companies to hire the migrant work force.

Every so many years the UK has to have a depression and a clear out of all the high wages from the so called working class people which has built up over years, why? Because it’s a great way to keep inflation down, if this wasn’t the case, everybody in the country would eventually end up as millionaires with no need to work, Thatcher done it and Blair and his cronies are doing it in a more sinister way, his idea is to give none British workers as many jobs as possible knowing full well that most of the money will be sent out of the country to feed their own families and forcing British workers to take less paid jobs or even unemployment which also keeps spending down to a minimum. And with heavy manipulation of the real unemployment figures the Chancellor proudly boasts that we are all doing better than we did before and inflation is at an all time low. While we struggle to pay for our TV licence to listen to this drivel, whilst eating our beans on toast, he cuddles up in his luxury apartments eating caviar with not a care in the world for the real people of this country.

You know full well what is going on, and just like a true Labour supporter you would try and force warped truth on to us and have us believe we are all better off even if we can’t get work, and if we don’t like it, TOUGH. When it concerns my family’s welfare I couldn’t care-less about Eastern Europe’s poor workers or the well being of Labourers new voters.

You also ignore my examples of what is actually happening here right now like the workers in the new stadium, well this is also true in the new ASDA facing the new stadium, why do we need workers from Eastern Europe on building sites (is it because Britain needs to know how to build buildings?) my brother works with Polish builders who can’t speak a word of English and he can’t afford a luxury car or the high petrol prices because his wages has been docked, and he was told if he wants he can leave just like the rest of the British workers who would not take a pay cut and be replaced with 2 Polish workers, not to worry though, he can get the bus and be driven to work by Polish bus drivers, that actually happened and is happening everyday.

The myth is that we need migrant workers to help our failing economy and lazy workforce, fact is the government needs migrant workers to help control interest rates & keep down inflation…this country has never been the one suffering from work shy people, this country happens to be one of the leading pioneers of industry and have been one of the icons for the rest of the world to follow.

The real reason to bring in cheap labour is to undermine the already in place workforce, which means more profit for friends and cronies of the anti British Labour Government, you are talking about a changed world that you left some 20 years ago, I am talking about personal experiences of a Town and City I have lived in for 40 years. You seem to think you can not be wrong, I have news for you, you are wrong, in every Law that has ever been made, there is ALWAYS the exception and there is always the exploitation of those (Labour Governemnt) who stand to gain from it. I also see this country is not fit for you to live in and spend your hard earned cash?

And anyway, I still 100% believe that a casino has no place in the middle of a run down area and will have no benefit to the locals of that area. Remember; The SOLE purpose of a company is PROFIT, not some social, charitable welfare program for the worlds poor.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

At last, having been found out and having had your erroneous statements totally and accurately refuted (no apology for your misleading statements regarding legislation I notice) you post a rant based on your perceptions, hearsay and myth.

You are entitled to your opinions, but if you don't like the conditions in which you are living why not do something about it?

If you know of companies breaking the law, why don't you report them? The authorities regularly successfully prosecute companies which flout the rules.

I'm not going to answer your points one by one any more - it's pointless. You have made your mind up, pointing you in the direction of facts and accurate information makes no difference, you don't want to know. It's far more comfortable for you to stay fixed in your furrow believing the foreign horde is taking over and preferring to complain rather than doing something about it.

Three things I will comment on:

You make out I'm support Labour. I've news for you, I was a founder member of the SDP, left them after they teamed up with the Liberals and voted Labour in 1997 to get rid of the Tories. Like most other people I was misled by the closet Tory in No.10. There currently isn't a single party in the UK worth my vote.

I'd pit my knowledge and understanding of how Manchester operates as a conurbation TODAY against yours and most other people's.

As for where I choose to live and why, that's none of your business.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

One further thought. Going on your rationale the London Olympics should be let go, all development stopped and all the benefits to some of the poorest parts of East London - Stratford and Beckton - should be ignored as no doubt the building will be done by communist Poles working for agencies based outside the country who break all the laws, the venues will be staffed by similarly employed foreigners and, as the venues and events will generate profit, they should not be allowed to exist in a poor area.

Or perhaps you think the London Olympics should go ahead in Hyde Park close to Park Lane, Mayfair and Kensington.

[bazzor]

So its all your fault then… SDP that explains it all, another failure just like Belle Vue, and to change things you changed colour just to vote someone out of office, and then realised what you had done and left the country. (joke)

I am not saying I am wrong by the way, I am saying you are. No apology from me to you is required for your patronising and smug remarks. The loophole is not illegal it’s allowed because the company operating the agency is not abiding by British rules, but is abiding by its own countries rules which happens to be inside the EU. The TAXs and wages are applied for workers of that agency are based on the agencies own country.

And if anyone should be in the dock, then it would be the Labour government, they are the ones wasting money on awarding ASBOs to children from depressing area like Harpurhey, but fail to stop the illegal entry of many a mass murderer or by allowing this migration of the countries jobs and wealth to any other country apart from this one. You know full well what is happening and Law is always written in a way to confuse the less educated and will always have exceptions to the rule which can always be argued away.

It boils down to; Why would a company hire workers from anywhere in the EU other than their own country if it wasn't for profit?

EDIT: I care as much about London winning the bid for the Olympics as most Londoners did about Manchester winning the bid. In other words "Not interested one bit!"

[bazzor]

MORE than half of people believe the arrival of Eastern European workers is making it harder for British citizens to get jobs, according to a new survey.
Research for the BBC 1's Inside Out programme showed that most people believe migrant workers had been good for the British economy, but more than one in four feared wages were being driven down by cheap labour.
Almost four-fifths of 1000 people questioned backed proposals to restrict the arrival of Bulgarian and Romanian workers. Two-thirds of those questioned said Eastern European migrants were hard workers, but there were considerable concerns about their effects on the British labour market.

The poll suggested that those most concerned were manual workers who felt they were in competition with migrant workers for low-paid jobs. Groups campaigning for better pay and conditions for migrant workers said the issue was not where workers were coming from, but the gaps in the UK's labour laws that allowed migrants to be paid less and treated worse than established UK workers.

A spokesman for the Transport and General Workers' Union said: "The increasing use of employment agencies to bring in workers, usually migrant, on inferior terms and conditions causes serious problems at the lower end of the labour market, where wages are already low and workers are vulnerable.

"The Government has to accept it has a duty to prevent the fabric of our labour laws being unravelled by agencies who undercut decent employers by slashing workers' wages. This is not flexibility, it is abuse. It is undermining faith in managed migration and legislation is urgently needed to arrest the problems this is causing."

Source: Scotsman.com News - Immigration and refugees - Immigrant influx 'making it hard for Britons to find jobs'

As you can see, I am not the only one who understands what is going on, the divide between the rich and poor is evident here, and it’s the rich raping the poor as per usual. No wonder slums created by the government are rife with crime. If their own government is unwilling to help them and in fact who are actively harming them, what would you expect the poor to do?

Far more sinister is that you would have us believe with the text you shown which claims to be Law, which is nothing more than a smoke screen for the less educated. No one Law is perfect, and will invariably have a different outcome each time when tested in a court of Law based solely on the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged crime.

Based on the above it appears that “Groups campaigning for better pay and conditions for migrant workers” (who are obviously thinking of nothing more than the migrants wellbeing – not mine) are fully aware of the same problem which I have argued in this forum. Only politicians would force deceit and lies with their spin in order to force us into Europe via the backdoor route, since it is obvious the majority of the British people do not want to be part of the new EU.

Please note the reply to the link from a member of the public. My argument exactly.

[Henry Mantell]

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, a senior Liberal Democrat peer,
" A Manchester monster casino is still miles from the winning post. It faces a searching steward's inquiry and probable disqualification in the Lords."
The joint committee of MP's and peers, which drew up the original legislation for a super-casino, has already warned Tessa Jowell that she cannot carry decisions in either house.
The principal objections centre on Manchester City Council and the Labour Party's links with Kerzner international headed by Sun City tycoon Sol Kerzner, Manchester's preferred casino operator. It is a matter of record that Kerzner International have held 12 meetings with different Government ministers.
Jowell has now offered the committee a reconvened joint committee to review the advisory panel recommendation in advance of her March "ministerial order" which is the first step in Commons and Lords decision about the panel recommendation.
However Tessa Jowell " believes the panel acted with rigour and remains minded to follow its recommendation of Manchester."
I think I offered my personal experience of Tessa Jowell on the forum. She looks increasingly vulnerable with the London 2012 cost saga and now both 80 Labour MP's signed up to oppose her choice on this one and a joint committee questioning Manchester City Council and Labour Party conduct.
Incidentally there is no guarantee that the super casino will be built at Sport City as suggested in the original bid, so the entire project looks to be under inquiry!
As a pensioner already paying for London 2012 through my above inflation London precept on my growing community charge bill there is a lot I could say about that! At least Mancunians and Uk based Manchester expats outside the M25 are so far exempt from contributions but the way the project is going you may be joining shortly! Phil looks exempt in any event!
I think that a decision on the casino may be some way off!

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Originally Posted by Henry Mantell

At least Mancunians and Uk based Manchester expats outside the M25 are so far exempt from contributions but the way the project is going you may be joining shortly! Phil looks exempt in any event!
I think that a decision on the casino may be some way off!

Henry, you are spot on re who will pay. There is no way that any UK taxpayer will avoid contributing to the cost of London 2012 which, for Mancunians, should be a matter of great annoyance given the weak support from London, and Government in particular, for Manchester's bids.

There is no way that any London authority can afford the escalating cost and no political party is going to risk the massive vote loser of precepting Council Tax for only the London Region, where the extra tax would be long standing and heavy, if they can cover the cost from extra national stealth taxes, slightly reducing increases in benefits and holding back or watering down investment in projects across the country.

Don't kid yourself that I will not be paying. My UK pension could suffer and over 60% of all goods and foodstuffs sold in the Republic are made, have components/ingredients sourced or are transported through the UK and I can't see UK suppliers and transport companies not passing on increased costs from increased taxation.

[Henry Mantell]

I hesitate to use the words John Prescott in company these days, but he is reported to be opposed to the decision to site the casino in Manchester. There are also reports of ministerial disbelief at the advisory panel recommendation including Tessa Jowell . The backbench Mp signatories opposed to the decision is now over 100 and the majority are Labour.
John Prescott strikes me as ready for installation at Blackpool himself, I can imagine him falling trousers and all , exploding Jaguar clown car in the Tower Circus.
Sobering thought that he was a contender for Labour leadership along with T. Bliar when John Smith died. ITV 1 tonight at 9 for those who like comedy!