Super Casino for Manchester: A bad decision?

[aidanorourke]

I wasn't keen on the SuperCasino idea as my attitude towards gambling is somwhat more conservative than that of Mr Hudson in Upstairs Downstairs!

However I think it is incumbent upon those of us who like to question and express dissent to put forward alternative proposals.

So what could be done to improve the economic situation of east Manchester and bring it more into line with south Manchester and other more prosperous areas?

Any suggestions?

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Reno, Atlantic City, Las Vegas, Sun City, Macau have all benefited from the casino industry and there is scant evidence to show that casinos located next to areas requiring regeneration encourage gambling amongst the residents of a "poor" area.

Certainly this is not the case in the US and South African examples - I can't speak for Macau, I haven't been there - but casinos have certainly provided regular and long standing employment and brought both income and inward investment in their train.

Certain U S Native American communities have greatly benefited from being able to offer gambling - indeed for some it has been their only way of gaining a living and providing education, medical care and some of the comforts of modern life.

The downside is the great cultural divide. In Atlantic City this is almost visible in the distance of a block, between low rent and run down housing on the one corner and the glass and neon palaces across the street and can be seen in Las Vegas and Reno to a lesser degree.

However, the U S seems to cope with this possibly because a class divide, whilst it may exist in reality, is not in the psyche of the land of opportunity. People from the poorer areas in those cities either aren't interested, or couldn't care less or see the casinos as their place of work. This is even more true in the Caribbean where casinos, populated by cruise ship visitors from the U S sit cheek by jowl with poor housing, often in gated and security patrolled compounds.

To brand all casino owners/management as "gangster like" is a gross calumny and whilst planning will be - and always has been - open to corruption, I remember what Newcastle and other towns where the likes of Poulson and T Dan Smith operated were like in the 1950s and 1960s and, whatever they built and however questionable and illegal their practices, what appeared as a result of their work was a great deal better than the slums and run down town and city centres that were there before.

[mr angry]

If anyone wants to see some of my other rants go to the Manchester Evening News site..

[Sparkly]

The indian casinos have resulted in improvements for Native North Americans, however, this is due to a bit of legal and financial work, where a good percentage of the profits stay in the community, not head out to a corporate head office or government tax office. Las Vegas, Reno and a few other places succeed as gambling is restricted in many states, so people go there to gamble and party, and Las Vegas was also built on some very dodgy funding initially, but is somewhat more regulated now. However, it's a boom/bust town, currently heading to bust with the credit crunch, that is a vacation and conference venue and it's skill is in making gambling seem like a secondary activity. I'm not sure the Las vegas 'model' would have translated to UK casinos anyway. It's more likely we'd end up with the casinos like in smaller towns around the state borders of Nevada, which are aimed more at lower-rollers, people passing through and the local population. they are quite depressing places with little of the glitz and glamour of LV. I do wonder sometimes, if the people promoting 'Las Vegas of the North' have ever been to Las Vegas and other casino towns and seen the very good and very bad sides of it.

Meanwhile back in East Manchester, I drove through last week and it still feels quite depressing and...empty, where the only excitement is waiting for the B in the Bang to shed another spike and dull gray seems a popular colour on buildings. It's missing a lot of greenery, and interesting shops and bars. I get the impression that many of the new facilities recently build are woefully underutilised, except for the giant Asda Walmart.

We've managed to revitalise the centre of cities (Manchester, Birmingham..) perhaps at the expense of places a bit further out, but I'm sure it can be done, but maybe it's not via big capital schemes, but by people in the community or people joining the community getting a tax/rent/rates break with setting up businesses, shops, cafes, galleries, events and so on. A bit of money spent on a small community scheme goes much further than a lot of money on a big new building.

[aidanorourke]

Personally I don't think East Manchester is all that bad. Around the B of the Bang site, there's the shiny City of Manchester Stadium, home of Manchester City, that's certainly impressive. The Asda Walmart is definitely well-used - i often go there. Then there are the new apartments by Countryside Properties, they're pretty impressive. Phillips Park is looking quite good these days, and has benefited from some money. The residential areas beyond don't seem too bad. Much of Manchester and Salford is scruffy and run down, not just east Manchester. But south Manchester is very different, the fashionable cafes and bars of Burton Road and Withington, the cosmopolitan feel of Levenshulme, you don't seem to get that in east Manchester, but I think that's to do with the make-up of the area. Maybe they should found a university there to rival Salford to the west and Manchester / MMU in the south of Manchester. In Dublin, they founded DCU, Dublin City University in the north of the city. Maybe EMU East Manchester University, or maybe Manchester City University!

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Apart from straight line, dull and typical Treasury thinking, there is no valid reason why the area should not have benefited in the same way as the Native American communities.

The Manchester casino would have been a so called "Super Casino" and, as such, would not have been marketed to low rollers, though they may well have come anyway (last time in Reno, staying at Harrah's, we limited ourselves to $10 per night!). The casino would have offered an attractive incentive to people from around the EU and, coupled with visit packages and frequent flights could have, with constructive application of legislation and taxation, been built into a very profitable attraction for the immediate area and, at the same time have added to the income of the airport, transport companies, hotels and a host of ancillary industries.

I've been at Atlantic City Airport on a Saturday (when the weekly charters arrive) to witness no less than 30 flights arrive from all over the country and Canada with an average of just over 100 passengers a flight .

Most of the passengers stay between 3 and 7 nights and this is repeated every weekend, 52 weeks a year. 156,000 visitors a year is not to be sniffed at - especially in addition to the regular daily arrivals. Las Vegas and Reno have much greater numbers visiting the cities and not just for gambling - in fact more for what has grown around the casinos such as the entertainment, the conventions and the sheer spectacle which, in retrospect, would probably have suited Blackpool better, indeed the term Las Vegas of the North was originally applied to Blackpool where it could have become valid with a Super Casino, the other visitor attractions and improved convention facilities.

I'm not sure from where Sparkly gets the idea that Las Vegas is heading for bust. The Convention calendar is very healthy and the bulk of visitors to the town are not primarily there to gamble. Not that the casinos need to worry. The bulk of their income comes from high rollers and the credit crunch won't affect them. They are so important the venues regularly entice them with free food and accommodation.

As an example the tour guides at the Luxor Hotel delight in telling visitors that the hotel cost $375 million to build. They invited the world's top 3,000 gamblers for a four day gamble fest during the opening week and gave them free accommodation, food and drink.

At the end of the first seven days of operation the total cost of the build and fitting out of the hotel, the staff recruitment and training costs and the cost of the first week of operation had been paid for from the take and there was still a few hundred thousand dollars over. The Luxor is currently undergoing a $300 million refurbishment and other venues in the city regularly reinvent themselves.

To show just how small a part of the city's attraction is based on gambling see: http://www.lvcva.com/getfile/VPS-200...pdf?fileID=107 and this pattern is repeated in Reno and Atlantic City. It is true to say, however, that none of the cities would be have been recognised without the gambling but their current and continuing success is based on what has grown around it, rather than because of it. The same opportunities existed for the site of the Super Casino.

That's all over now for Manchester and the east of the city needs a "big idea". I'm not sure the region needs another university - and arguments about exclusivity of employment at an academic establishment would arise, let alone the usual reaction of the inhabitants to the influx of students - but if the area is to be famous and, most importantly, useful for something other than Shameless the next idea will need to be accepted and its potential understood by the inhabitants in a way that the casino idea wasn't.

[aidanorourke]

I don't think that was a serious suggestion of mine, a new university in East Manchester! Just thinking aloud.

I must visit Las Vegas some time, if only for the photographic opportunties and knowing me I will not gamble one cent of my money!

So, what is going to be the 'Big Idea' for east Manchester then? Good transport connections, plenty of open space, a highly qualified, motivated and work-hungry workforce...?

[Sparkly]

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

I'm not sure from where Sparkly gets the idea that Las Vegas is heading for bust.....The Luxor is currently undergoing a $300 million refurbishment and other venues in the city regularly reinvent themselves.

Bust is something of a relative term in Lv, they've just had a massive boom, but they are subject the economy like any other industry, so many big capital projects will be put on hold eg the half-built Cosmopolitan resort, but as you've said, it regularly reinvents itself when revenues are down (adult to family and back to adult destination). A bigger problem might be the over investment in residential property, like many of the newer cities in the USA.

Timing-wise, a Manchester casino might not have worked well, but as you say Phil, "constructive application of legislation and taxation" would make a big difference to the success of the casino, and more importantly the area.

Moving the MMU or university of Manchester out of the centre isn't a bad idea, I'm sure it would generate a bunch of funding and release high value space in the centre of the city. A lot of the 'trendy' South Manchester areas were student areas for a long time, and presumably, many students stayed there and got good jobs but set up a demand for little bars, cafes and shops.

I quite like the stadium, but I do get the impression it's underused, not helped by the website currently showing 'news and offers for January 2008'! btw, the Paralympics World Cup is coming up in May, with the Regional Arena, Velodrome and Aquatics centre for venues.

Perhaps the metrolink and a number of other initiatives mentioned here New East Manchester - Homepage will significantly boost the area.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

You're right about the residential property. Having taken over the property boom crown from parts of Florida some years ago, Las Vegas has seen a distinct slow down in the last two years.

How this will translate into developments in the leisure market remains to be seen, building work was still continuing this week on the Cosmopolitan whilst efforts are made to re-finance and, as the Luxor has signalled by changing themes and aiming at a more adult market, the trend for the next few years may be away from the family/general tourism market.

Back in Manchester, the Stadium has the UEFA Cup Final on May 14 - if Rangers don't make the final then the airport will benefit from 50,000 extra passengers that day, as will local transport companies.

Whilst one off, one day, events at the Stadium and sports complex benefit certain businesses in Manchester and help the promotion of the city and its facilities on the world stage, the benefit to the immediate area and populace is minimal.

Looking back, the area was a powerhouse of industry. Crossley, Beyer Peacock, Great Central Railway/LNER/BR, Bradford Colliery, a range of founderies and other manufacturing plants provided regular, if sometimes tough, employment which in turn provided income for shops, pubs and clubs, all within the local area. All that has gone and nothing substantive has come in its place.

Looking at even the most modern cities around the world in the Far East, North America and even in the Gulf, there are areas in each that do not benefit from the "boom" going on around them.

How this problem can be solved has been a conundrum for sociologists, planners and politicians, let alone the people living in those areas, since the industrial revolution began - and very probably for centuries before, possibly since cities were invented.

What is worrying about the so called Eastlands area is that the inhabitants, to judge by comment on many forums and in the media, see the Stadium as "no good for us", didn't want the Casino and haven't come up with a substantive idea to provide regular employment opportunities and the social regeneration to match the built environment that has so radically changed over the last two decades.

[Sparkly]

Idea of the week for the ex-casino area is a £250 million Opera house. Opera house instead of casino? - News - Manchester Evening News

Considering the huge amounts of public money that have been and continue to be poured into the the Royal Opera House in London (a £200 million refit then over £60million a year), I'm not sure this is a good idea for council tax payers as I'd guess some funding for running costs would come from the council. Opera usually requires a big stage, but we already have the Arena, Lowry, Palace, original Opera House, and a few other suitable venues. London based arts companys seem to like the idea of touring or secondary bases in the 'provinces' at funding time, but then go off the idea when it comes to a longer term commitment.