Manchester Corporation/Selnec PTE Buses

[mr angry]

Thanks Phil for your comprehensive ansd detailed answer, this explains it!

I am a little bit hazy on Manchester pre Selnec and remember them better into the orange and white period. As far as I know the lowest numbered Leylands were 3200 and Daimlers 4111 which Selnec took over, the 41xx ones were the Daimlers with the chromed exposed radiator, both Leylands and Daimlers of this vintage having the MCW streamline bodies with the rear two windows on the upper and lower decks being shallower than the others correct?

I know none of these were repainted into orange and white and the Daimlers looked similar to Salfords with the straight staircases. I remember those slightly better as they sometimes used to come into Raccliffe on the number 6from Eccles.

Also, the Salford Leylands and Daimlers were fitted into the Manchester series at the start by Selnec, taking the lowest numbers 3000 and 4000 upwards, apart from the Mancunians which were added to the end of the Manchester Leyland PDR2 series, I think they were 1201-1220. I used to wonder what livery they would have had if they had been delivered to Salford in time, I think the dark green applied to wheelarch level and a central band and the roof with the rest in cream would have looked smart.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

The oldest MCTD vehicles SELNEC took over were:

Single Deckers:
46-50 Leyland Tiger Cubs delivered 1961

Leyland Double Deckers:

3200-3264 Leyland PD2/3 MCW post war Manchester Standard body. Delivered between May 1951 and February 1952 and were the last of the body design delivered having had to wait for space at MCW.

3224 was withdrawn in April 1969 before SELNEC took over, the rest of the batch passed to SELNEC though none received the Sunglow Orange and off white livery. Don't make the mistake of calling this body design (with the step up windows) "Streamliners". That term is reserved for the 1930s design which appeared on Crossley, Leyland and Daimler chassis prior to 1945. The correct term is post war Standard as distinct from the 1930s standard which pre-dated the Streamliners.

3265-3299 Leyland PD2/3 Leyland body. Delivered between July 1950 and September 1950. Of these only 3287, 3294 and 3299 passed to SELNEC, 3287 being the oldest bus passed from MCTD, having been delivered in August 1950, the other two dating from September. None received SELNEC livery.

Daimler Double Deckers:

The MCW Phoenix bodied CVG6s were delivered in two batches. 4100-4149 arrived between September 1950 and March 1951. Of these 4111, 4118, 4122-4137, 4139-4148 passed to SELNEC.

4150-4189 arrived between March 1951 and July 1951. All of this batch passed to SELNEC. I have heard that at least one appeared in SELNEC colours but I have no recollection, nor have I seen photo proof.

Whilst deliveries continued seamlessly from September 1950 to July 1951, the buses were ordered in two distinct batches, the first batch being registered in the JND series, the second in the KND series.

The bodywork was Manchester's version of the Phoenix body with a turn instead of straight staircase and the radiator was longer than on the Salford vehicles.

There is evidence that Stuart Pilcher had intended 3000-3369 and 4000-4189 to all have the post war Standard body. When A F Neal took over there was both a glut of chassis awaiting bodying as well as delays from time to time at Crossley, Leyland and Daimler due to the massive nationwide demand for new vehicles.

This gave Albert Neal time to look at the high cost of the post war Standard product and, faced with rising fuel and labour costs, the first signs of a decline in passenger numbers and public anger at fare increases 3265-3369, which were originally to have been post war Standards when the numbering scheme was devised, were changed when the time came to place the orders to vehicles with Leyland and Northern Counties bodies though only 3265-3299 could truly be said to have been almost, but not quite, untouched by Manchester's penchant for changing the manufacturer's specification.

Whilst delivered without the split lower body panels Manchester usually specified, 3265-3299 did have nearside fuel tanks and the split panels were added as accident damage and overhauls came around.

Similarly 4100-4189 would have been post war Standards, though presumably not bodied by Brush which bodied the 4000 series buses, as the Department and the body builder had not seen eye to eye.

All the Crossley orders received post war Standard bodies but all had been withdrawn before SELNEC took over.

The Salford Mancunians were finished inside to full Salford green specification. When the order was announced the trade press showed them in artists' impressions in both the standard Salford one cream stripe scheme of the time and in the reverse overall cream with one green stripe which had been used on some of the CVG6 Daimlers from the 1950/53 batches to celebrate the Department's 50th anniversary. I don't recall seeing any illustration in a Manchester type colour layout.

[old driver]

hi great group just joined,have loved reading all the letters.I have just retired from driving buses after 36years for manchester corporation,rochdale road depot,rochdale s e l n e c,and bury first bus, and have realy enjoyed it.i can not believe what you lads know about buses Anyway keep up the good work and please ask if you want any information i would love to help
regards old driver

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Welcome aboard Old Driver! Any reminiscences you can contribute are most welcome.

Phil Blinkhorn

[Orla Nutting]

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

Harry Postlethwaite's book, just published, should give some clue as to the more obscure routes that Stockport numbered in the late 1960s and I intend to pick up a copy when I'm in Manchester in May.

Regretably, it doesn't. Whilst there are some excellent photo's in the book the latest route list is that of 1963 and so misses a major expansion period of routes by SCTD. Additionally, there's a list of joint services which fails to mention that route 9 and 109 were joint services with Manchester; the former being only Stockport operated and (I suppose as a quid pro quo) the latter being only Manchester operated. Taken together these routes offered just about the longest route possible from Victoria to West Didsbury! However, I did learn that route 90, Marple to Stalybridge, was a joint service between SCTD, SHMD and NWRCC though Stockport didn't supply any vehicles.

There's a useful list of SCTD preserved buses (together with names of current owners) at the back of the book which was slightly longer than I've previously seen though I'm puzzled by the attribution of #52 to Garside and Whitaker, Crewe as this bus was still parked up at Fromes Hill in Herefordshire when I saw a week ago and it's been there for several years......gradually decaying. So far as I know it's owned by a former Stratford Blue driver who had the intention of repainting in that livery but that didn't happen. Instead that fate befell #40 I believe.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Originally Posted by Orla Nutting

Additionally, there's a list of joint services which fails to mention that route 9 and 109 were joint services with Manchester; the former being only Stockport operated

In the late 1950s and up until around 1961/2 the #9 was operated as the 9x by Manchester vehicles West Didsbury - Heaton Moor Top in that direction only arriving at Mauldeth Rd on the hour and half hour at 7 a.m. and 7.30 a.m. only. At Heaton Moor Top, around 3 minutes later, the route number would be changed to 18 and the destination set to Manchester Chorlton St. The bus would proceed to Wellington Rd North calling at all stops then follow the 18 route into Manchester. At 8 a.m. a Stockport vehicle, often a pre-war TD7, would do the same. At Wellington Rd a 9x, operating out of Heaton Lane depot would be waiting across the lights to complete the journey to Reddish and these were normally PD2s working out to Reddish to take up the 17 service and build up the numbers to the usual intense frequency in time for schools traffic.

[Orla Nutting]

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

In the late 1950s and up until around 1961/2 the #9 was operated as the 9x by Manchester vehicles West Didsbury - Heaton Moor Top in that direction only arriving at Mauldeth Rd on the hour and half hour at 7 a.m. and 7.30 a.m. only. At Heaton Moor Top, around 3 minutes later, the route number would be changed to 18 and the destination set to Manchester Chorlton St. The bus would proceed to Wellington Rd North calling at all stops then follow the 18 route into Manchester. At 8 a.m. a Stockport vehicle, often a pre-war TD7, would do the same. At Wellington Rd a 9x, operating out of Heaton Lane depot would be waiting across the lights to complete the journey to Reddish and these were normally PD2s working out to Reddish to take up the 17 service and build up the numbers to the usual intense frequency in time for schools traffic.

Interesting, except that Stockport didn't have any pre-war TD7's......all three were delivered in 1940 (though they were ordered in 1939 along with the 3 Crossley Mancunians of which only 2 were delivered in 1941 with the final one arriving in 1946 as a DD42/3).

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Agreed about the TD7s. Do you have any delivery dates? The buses were registered in 1939, the year they were ordered and the bodies, which were almost prototypes for the post war Leyland double deck body, had maker's plates dated 1939 (perhaps to get around wartime restrictions which by 1940 were beginning to bite).

[Orla Nutting]

Originally Posted by Phil Blinkhorn

Agreed about the TD7s. Do you have any delivery dates? The buses were registered in 1939, the year they were ordered and the bodies, which were almost prototypes for the post war Leyland double deck body, had maker's plates dated 1939 (perhaps to get around wartime restrictions which by 1940 were beginning to bite).

It could well be that they were manufactured in 1939. There seems to be a lot of conflicting detail about the deliveries to SCTD during the early part of the war. For instance, the two Crossley Mancunians were generally believed to have been delivered in 1941 (this is the year that Peter Caunt's record shows and, apparently, one was featured in trade publications in the April of that year) but I'm looking at photograph in Postletwaites book that claims to show one of them on Merseyway in 1940 and he makes other mention of them being delivered in that year whilst listing them as 1941 acquisitions in one of his appendices.

[Phil Blinkhorn]

Who'd be an historian???